GSB播客｜Think Fast, Talk Smart-95: 如何简单有效地传达复杂的想法

来源：斯坦福商学院

你说了，但他们听到了吗？对于FrancesFrei来说，沟通就是用足够简单的语言让观众能够真正理解你的想法。

作为哈佛商学院技术和运营管理学教授，Frei知道，想要在公司内部塑造文化，就需要以能够影响人们思维和行为的方式进行沟通。她说，许多领导者面临的问题是，当我们“深入理解某件事时，往往会用复杂的方式去描述它。如果你想要广泛的影响力和说服力，就必须真正深入地了解一件事情，然后再以简单且足够引人注目的方式进行描述，以便其他人可以真正理解并采取行动。”

在本集播客中，Frei和主持人MattAbrahams探讨了简化沟通、建立和维持信任以及在团队中弘扬多元化观点的策略。他们还讨论了Frei的最新著作《快速行动并解决问题：值得信赖的领导者解决难题指南》中提到的要点。

以下为本期播客的文字整理稿：

MattAbrahams: Whenitcomestochangeandpersuasion,wemustthinkdeeply,butcommunicatesimply.Welcometo ThinkFast,talkSmart,thepodcast.I’mMattAbrahamsandIteachstrategiccommunicationatStanfordGraduateSchoolofBusiness.TodayIamsuperexcitedtobejoinedbyFrancisFrei,whoisProfessorofTechnologyandOperationsManagementatHarvardBusinessSchool.FrancisservedasUber’sSeniorVicePresidentofLeadershipandStrategy,alongwithAnneMorriss.FrancishoststheFixablepodcast.Andtogether,AnneandFranciswrote Unleashed:TheUnapologeticLeader’sGuidetoEmpoweringEveryoneAroundYou andtheirnewbook, MoveFastandFixThings:TheTrustedLeader’sGuidetoSolvingHardProblems.Welcome,Francis.IhaveenjoyedgettingtoknowyouoverthelastfewyearsandIlooksoforwardtoourconversationtoday.

FrancesFrei: Oh,I’msothrilledtobehere,Matt.Thankyouforinvitingme.

MattAbrahams: Absolutely.Solet’sgetstarted.Youstudyandadvocateforthevalueandimportanceoftrustinleadership.Canyousharesomestrategiesandtacticsleaderscanusetobuildandsupporttrust?

FrancesFrei: Yeah,sothefirstthingistorealizethatmanyofthesayingsweheararenottrue.Soittakesalongtimetobuild.Youloseitinaninstant,itcanneverberebuilt.Noneofthosestatementsaretrue.Myfirststrategicadviceistreattrustlikeyoutreateverythingelseyouwanttobuild,understandit’scomponentparts,builditup.Ifsomethinghappensanditgetswobbly,gobackinandshoreupthepartthatgotwobbly.Youdon’thavetoshoreuptherestofit,justthepartthatgotwobbly.Sotreatitassomethingthatyoubuildandletgoofallofthemythsaroundit.

MattAbrahams: Soitsoundstomelikeweneedtothinkoftrustassomethingthat’songoing,thatwe’reconstantlymonitoringandmeasuringandmakingsurethatit’sthelevelwewishittobe,andifnot,wediverightinandfixit.Isthatright?

FrancesFrei: Iwouldsayisthatwhenyouareearningtrust,youcanthinkaboutotherthingsandanytimeyouhaveskepticsofonesourceoranother,treatthatwithprecisionandurgencytogoinandshoreupwhatwasintheplaceandthengetitbackuptohummingalongandthenIthinkyoudon’thavetoworryaboutitquiteasmuchanymore.

MattAbrahams: Excellent.Andyoutalkedaboutthedifferentcomponents,soI’dloveforyoutodescribeforusyourtrusttriangle,whatitisandhowwecanuseit.AndIwanttofollowuponwhatyoujustsaidaswell.Whenyounoticethattrustisweakerthanyouwantit,whataresomeofthethingsyoucandotodiveinandworkonit?

FrancesFrei: Terrific.Essentiallythecomponentpartsareauthenticity,logicandempathy.AndwhatthatmeansisthatIammorelikelytoearnyourtrust.Youaremorelikelytotrustmeifyousimultaneouslyexperiencemyauthenticity,mylogic,andmyempathy.Ifyouareblockedfromexperiencinganyoneofthosethree,you’renotgoingtotrustme.That’swhenwesayitgetswobbly.That’swhenwehaveskeptics.We’retrustedmostofthetime.Soauthenticity,logicandempathyarecooking,they’regoing,buteverysingletimetrustbreaksdownbetweenindividuals,betweenanystakeholders,betweenorganizations.Anytimeitbreaksdown,wehavealwaysbeenabletotraceitbacktooneofthesethreeandthenwegettogogettoworkonwhichoneitisbecauseyou’llfindthattheprescriptionsareverydifferentforthethreeofthem.Sowereallyhavetogetthatmatchingright.

MattAbrahams: That’sreallyhelpfultohavethatrubricorkeyavailable.Anditstrikesme,Francis,thatreflectionisreallyimportantinthis.Alotofus,myselfincluded,whenIfeeltrustisatrisk,IgetfrustratedandIfeellikeI’mdoingeverythingIshould.Whydon’tthesepeopletrustme?ItsoundslikeIhavetotakeastepbackandreallyreflectonwhat’shappening,lookatthethreethatyou’vementionedandthentrytofigureoutwhereitissoIcanatleastmakesomeadjustments.

FrancesFrei: Yeah,I’dsay,Matt,yougaveawayalittlebitofatellthatyoumighthaveanempathywobble.I’mdoingeverythingright.Whydon’ttheytrustme?That’saprettyclassicempathywobble.Here’swhatIwouldsay.Iwonderwhatitisaboutmycommunicationthat’sgettinginthewayofthem.SeehowIjustflippeditback?Becausewhenpeoplesaywehavetobeself-reflected,Idon’talwaysknowhowtodoit,butIknowhowtodowhatIjustdidwithyou,whichisgetcuriosityfromtheotherperson’sperspective.

MattAbrahams: Iloveit.Thankyou.Notonlyhaveyouhelpedme,butyou’vedemonstratedwhatwecanalldoforourselvesandforothers,andthankyoucriticallyimportanttotakethetimetoreflectandthentothinkabouthowyoucanreversethesituationtohelpgivetheinsightthatyouneed.Manyofthoselisteningworkfororganizationsthatareinvariousstagesofimplementingdeandi,diversity,equity,andinclusionprograms.Basedonyourexperience,whataresomeofthebestwaystoimplement,assessandreinforcedeandIprograms?

FrancesFrei: Sowehavefoundthatthebestwayistothinkaboutthelettersd,e,andIandchangethesequence.SothemostimportantofthesethreelettersisI,it’sinclusion.It’stheonethatshouldbedonefirstwhenwegetinclusion,right?Diversityandequityoftenfollow,butmanytimesIseeorganizationsgetdiversity,rightandequityandinclusionmayormaynotfollow.SoIthinkthefirstthingistorealizethatthefocusshouldbeoninclusionandnowwehaveaveryspecificunderstandingofhowtoaccelerateinclusioninanyorganization,butthecrispanswertothequestionisfocusoninclusionandyou’regoingtogoatamuchfasterpaceandgettoamuchhigherplace.

MattAbrahams: Great.Ilovetheideaofstartingwithinclusion.Canyougivealittlemoredetailintothespecificsofwhatinclusionlookslike?Aretherestagesandstepswecanpayattentionto?

FrancesFrei: Yes,indeed.Sothere’sfourstagesofitandthestagesaresafe,welcome,celebrated,championed.Thewaytothinkaboutitisthateachofusbringsmagnificentdifferencetothetable.You’reatStanford,I’matHarvard,andthenwecouldthenlistanother20differencesbetweenusandthey’remagnificent.Thewaytothinkaboutinclusionisthatdespiteanydifferencethatwe’rebringingtothetable,wehavetosettheconditionsothateachofusfeelssafe.Oncewe’veachievedsafetyandonlyoncewe’veachievedsafety,wegraduatetowelcome,whichisalighterandlovelierthingthathappened.Butdon’tworryaboutwelcomeifyoudon’thavesafety.Oncewehaveachievedsafeandwelcome,thenwewanttostartcelebratingoneanotherforouruniqueness.AndIthinkthisisthepartthatmattersinstinctually,weoftendwellonwhatwehaveincommon.

Welookforthecommongroundandthatsoundssogood.Theproblemisthemoredifferencewehave,thelesscommonwehave,andeverythingthatyouandIhaveincommonisalittleredundant.IwanttoknowhowdoyouthinkabouttheworlddifferentlythanhowIthinkabouttheworld?That’swhenwearebothcollectivelygoingtobebetteroff.Sowewanttolearnthepracticeofcelebratinguniquenessandwewanttocelebrateuniquenessinoneanother’spresence,butalsoinoneanother’sabsence.AndwechampionpeoplewhenIaminvitedintoaroom,forexample,thatmaybeothersaren’tinvitedintoandIspeakontheirbehalf,I’mchampioningthem.Andsoitgoessafe,welcome,celebrated,champion.Andthat’swhatwetalkaboutishowdowemovepeopleuptheinclusiondialwithoutmovinganyoneelsedowntheinclusiondial?Andthat’sifI’dsayin2023whenthere’salotofcontroversyaroundde,Ithinkmuchofitcanbefoundinthatconcept.We’reafraidofmovingsomepeopleupattheexpenseofmovingothersdown,andsowehavetobecleverinhowwedothis.

MattAbrahams: Ireallyappreciatethatarticulationofthedifferentsteps.ItreallyhelpedmetofocusonthedifferentstrategiesandcommunicationapproachesIwouldtakedependingonwhereweare.WhatIdotobuildasenseofsafetyisverydifferentthanwhatIdowhenI’mcelebrating.I

FrancesFrei: Lovethat.

MattAbrahams: Ithinkit’simportantforustorealizethatit’sawholetoolkitweneed.It’snotjustonebigapproach.Iwanttoturnourattentiontoyournewbook,moveFastandFixThings.YouandAnne,yourco-authorandco-hostonyourpodcastandwifestrivetoaccelerateexcellenceinorganizationsbyhelpingthem,asyousay,buildandlearnquicklywhilealsoavoidingcostlymistakes.Youdothisessentiallybyprovidingaplaybookforhowtofixthingsfast.Andyourepresentthismethodologybasedonaweekdaycalendar.Canyouwalkusthroughthefivestepsinyourplaybook?EssentiallywalkusthroughMondaythroughFriday.

FrancesFrei: We’veorganizedthebookbydaysoftheweek.Monday,identifyyourrealproblem.We’reoftenpresentedwiththesymptoms,butwegottotracebacktowhattherealunderlyingcauseis.Soit’sidentificationday,Tuesday,whateveryourproblemis.Ifitinvolveshumanbeings,trustisbroken.RebuildtrustatthecenterofyourproblemWednesdaywhenyou’relookingforhowtodoalltheotherthingsyouhavetodoinadditiontorebuildingtrust,well,youwanttogooutandgetasmanygorgeousnewperspectivesasyoucan.Sowecallitmakenewfriends,butreallydeliberatelygoandfindpeoplewhodon’tthinklikeyou.Whatweoftensaywhenpeoplegatheraroundthetable,whichperspectiveismissing?Lookforwho’snotatthetableandgoandinvitethemin.SoWednesdayismakenewfriends.ThursdayyourfavoritedayIbelieveisstorytellingday,whichiswhateverawesomesolutionsyou’vecomeupMonday,Tuesday,andWednesday.

Ifyoudon’tcommunicateitwell,it’sasifyoudidn’tcomeupwithanawesomesolution.Sowereallyfocusonhowtotellagreatstoryandthenonceyou’vedoneMonday,Tuesday,Wednesday,Thursday,nowyouhavelicensetogoasfastasyoucan.SowecallthebookMoveFastandFixThings.It’sreallyacountertomovefastandbreakthingsthatMarkZuckerbergmadefamous,butmanypeoplereallyputoutatleastimplicitly.Youcaneithergofastoryoucantakecareofpeople,oneortheother.Inourmindtheygavespeedabadname.Wefindifyoudoitthisway,youcangofasterwhenyoufixthingsthanifyoubrokethings.Butyoucan’tdothespeeddayanyearlierthanFriday.YouactuallyhavetogothroughMonday,Tuesday,WednesdayandThursday,andthenyou’reinapositiontogoasfastasyoucan.

MattAbrahams: Ireallyappreciateyoubreakingthatdown.Thebackgroundworkyoudoallowsyoutogoquicklyobviously,andthisisnotgoingtosurpriseyouoranyofourlisteners.IwanttolingeralittlelongeronThursday.IhaveacoupleofquestionsI’dliketoask.Whenyoutellyourstories,doyouhaveaparticularstructureorwayofformulatingthosestoriestoreallyhavethemprovideimpact?

FrancesFrei: Ilikethequestion.Sothefirstthingisthatforus,storieshaveapast,presentandfutureandit’sreallyimportantforustobesuperdeliberateabouteachone.Sowhenwetalkabouthowthegoodolddays,it’simportanttohonorwhathappenedinthepast,boththegoodofitandthebadofitbecauseitmight’vebeengoodolddaysforsomeandnotforothers.Hence,weneedtochange.Sohonorthepastbothsidesofhonorforthepresent,veryfewofuswanttochangeunlesswehaveto.Andsoweneedasuperclearandcompellingchangemandate.WhydoIhavetochangenow?CanIchangenextweek?Whataboutnextmonth?Nextquarterwouldbenextyearwouldbemoreconvenient.Allofasuddenit’sjustintheever,everdistantfuture.

SowhydoIhavetochangenow?Thejokeweoftenmakeisthatifyou’rearetailerandWalmartopensupnextdoor,superclear,supercompelling,well,wehavetobethatclearandthatcompellinginourstoryofwhynowforthischangeandthenthefuture,whichisokay,youwantustochangetowhat?Andthere’stwoaspectsofthefuturethatwefindtobesupernecessary.It’sgottoberigorous.Youcan’tdescribesomefantasticalthingandithastobeoptimistic.Sopeoplearenotgoingtofollowusifyou’regoingtolike,oh,wegottogotothefutureandit’sgoingtobegrim.Nobody’sgettingbehindyou,butnorarepeoplegettingbehinduswhenwe’relike,comeon,it’sgoingtobegreat.Andwe’relike,whyisitgoingtobegreat?Oh,itjustisnotgoingtowork.Sowefindthathonorthepasthaveaclearandcompellingchangemandateandarigorousandoptimisticwayforwardthatprovidesthenecessaryarchitecturefortellingagreatstory,tellingagreatchangestory.AndIguessthat’swhatI’msayingisthatthischangegoesfromyesterdaytotomorrow.

MattAbrahams: Thatstructureofpast,presentfutureisonethatyoucanseeinlotsofverymotivationalpresentationsandstoriesthatpeopletell.AndIappreciateyoubreakingitdownandthetonewithwhichyoudeliveritasyoumentionedthereisalsoimportant.Itneedstobeoptimistic.Itneedstobemotivationalandincentivizepeopletowanttostriveforit.SoIappreciatethatstructureverymuch.I’mahugefanofstructureandthepast,presentfuturestructureIthinkisidealforwhatyou’redescribing.Iwanttokeepgoingthoughonthis,youwritethatthefoundationofpersuasivecommunication,communicationthatwillchangethewaypeoplethinkandactistounderstandsomethingsodeeplythatyoucandescribeitsimply.Canyouunpackthatforus?

FrancesFrei: Ilovethesequestions.SoIfindthatwhenpeopledescribethingsinsimpleterms,it’seitherbecausetheyunderstooditsodeeplythattheycandescribeitthatwayandthatwillmoveme,ortheyunderstooditsuperficiallyandonlyoneofthoseisgoingtomovemetoaction.IfIcansaytherearethreecomponentsoftrust,thereareauthenticity,logic,andempathy.I’mnowdescribingthatverysimply.Well,IcandothatbecauseIunderstanditsodeeplynow,moreoftenthanwewouldlike.Whenpeopleunderstandsomethingdeeply,theyuseaverycomplicatedwaytodescribeit.SoIunderstanditdeeply.Idescribeitinacomplicatedway.Theproblemisyouthenspeaktojustaveryfewpeople,onlythepeoplethatcanalsoparticipate.Soifyouwantbroadinfluence,ifyouwanttohavebroadpersuasion,wehavetounderstanditreallydeeplyandthendescribeitinasimpleandcompellingenoughwaythatotherscantakeactionandtomesothatotherscantakeactioninourabsence.Andthat’swherethesimplicitypartcomesin.

MattAbrahams: That’sveryclear.Thosewho’velistenedinbeforehaveheardmyfavoritesayingthatcamefrommymother,althoughI’msureshedidn’toriginateit.Tellmethetime,don’tbuildmetheclock.AndIthinkthatfitswellwithwhatyou’resayingisyouhavetounderstandhowtobuildtheclock,butnoteverybodywantstoknowhowyoubuiltit.Theyjustwanttoknowthetimeandtheywanttoalignwiththat.Sothankyou.Iamcuriousifyoucantalkabitaboutemotionandpersuasionthough.

FrancesFrei: Yeah.Sofirstofall,Iwilljustsaythatwethinkthatemotionsareunderusedandthere’salmostlikeI’veheardsomanypeoplegiveadvice,don’tbesoemotional,containyouremotions.AndIfindthattonotbecorrectinmostinstances.Iwantpeopletobringmoreemotion.Emotionislikethesandingthatwecanthencomeandpaintontopofemotionreallymakesusabsorptive.SoIwantustobringouremotion,butIwantustobeabletoharnessthemandusethemcorrectly.Tome,notonlydoesemotionmakeusthreedimensionalinsteadoftwodimensional,butIthinkwehavegreaterabsorptivecapacityinitspresence.

MattAbrahams: IloveagoodanalogyandIlovethenotionofemotionisthesandingyoudobeforeyoupaintanditmakesthingsmoreabsorbent.That’slovely.AndIthinkthatisaperfectwaytoenvisiontheroleofemotionincommunicationandpersuasion.LastthingI’llaskyouaboutcommunication.You’vebeenaroundorganizationsalot,youstudiedthem.Whatareoneortwoofthebiggestcommunicationmistakesthatorganizationsmake?

FrancesFrei: Wemistakehavingsaiditforyourhavingheardit,Itoldthemasifthatmatters.Iamsouninterestedingivingparticipationtrophiesinlife,butreallyinthisaspectoflife,Iwanttoknow:didtheyhearit?

MattAbrahams: IthinkthatissoimportantandIseethatplayoutinmyownpersonallifeasaparent,asapartner,aswellasateacher.AndIthinkallofuscanimaginecircumstanceswhere,hey,we’vesaidit,sothereforeit’sdonewithoutreallycheckingfordidsomebodyhearusandwhatcouldIhavedonebettertomakeitclearer?Sothankyouforidentifyingthosemistakesandhighlightinghowweneedtoaddressthem.Beforeweend,Francis,I’dliketoaskyouthreequestions.Areyouupforthat?

FrancesFrei: I’dloveit.

MattAbrahams: Somyfirstquestionforyouisyourbooktalksaboutfivedays,MondaythroughFriday,SaturdayandSundayaren’tonthatlist.Whatarewedoingonthosedays?

FrancesFrei: Oh,veryimportantly,theweekhastwodaysofrestandrecovery,andthat’showeverythingshouldwork.Youdotheworkandthenyouhavetherestandrecovery.Asaformerathlete,IknewthatmymuscleswerebuiltwhileIwasresting,soIhadtodotheworkout,buttherecoveryiswhenIwouldactuallyshowthegains.Andsotheweakhasaweakend,andIthinkit’sareallyimportantmetaphor.

MattAbrahams: Absolutely.Ifindmyself,andIknowmanyothers,usetheweekendtocatchuponwork,andwhatI’mhearingyousayistaketheweekendtorejuvenate.

FrancesFrei: No,youjustsubstitutedtherecoveryforanextradayandthat’sgoingtocatchuponyou.That’sgoingtocatchuponyou.

MattAbrahams: Absolutely.Questionnumbertwo,who’sacommunicatorthatyouadmireandwhy?

FrancesFrei: Well,myrevealedbehavioristhatIconsumeagreatdealofcomedians.Standupcomedyisjustsomething,it’sverydifficultformetoimagine48hoursgoingbywithoutmeconsumingsomestandupcomedy.SoI’maconnoisseurofthat.AndIthinkbecausetheygetthesimplydeeply,theyunderstandanobservationsodeeplythattheycandescribeitsimplyhowmanyrepsittookthemtodothat,likeahundred,500,athousand.Sotheyalsohonorthecraftofcommunication,whichis,it’shardtogodeeplyandthentogetit.AndImightevensaythatcomediansaredeeplysimplyfunny,andthat’sliketheartform.I’mtryingtounderstandthingsdeeplysoIcandescribeitsimply.They’redoingthatandthenthey’realsomakingitfunny.Wow.That’slikeanotherlevel.

MattAbrahams: Itisamazingtomethedepthofexperience,practiceandworkthatcomediansputin.Ihaveacousinwho’sdoingverywellasacomedian,andI’veinterviewedseveral,andyou’reabsolutelyright.AndIlikehowyouphraseditthough,thesimply,deeplyfunny.That’sthecruxofwhattheydo.

FrancesFrei: AndifIcouldgiveashout-outtothetwocomediansIfindmyselflisteningtooverandoveragain,soIalreadyknowwhatthey’regoingtosayandIstillwanttolistentoit.Andthat’ssayingsomething,it’sWandaSykesandKathleenMadigan.AndIthinkthesetwocoveraspectrumthat’sprobablywideenoughforyourlistenersthatthey’regoingtoappreciateit,atleastoneofthem.

MattAbrahams: Ienjoybothofthem.I’llletyouknowalittlesecret,Frances.OneofthethingsIdoaspartofmynightlyritualtohelpmerelaxandturnoffmybrainiseverynightbeforeIgotobed,I’lllistentoafive-minutecomedyroutine,andbothofthosecomediansareinmyplaylist.Mygo-toisRobinWilliams.Ihavejustanadmirationforhisabilitytobespontaneous.Alright,questionnumberthree.Whatarethefirstthreeingredientsthatgointoasuccessfulcommunicationrecipe?

FrancesFrei: Ithinkintention,whichiswhat’sthepointofmycommunication?Andagain,noparticipationtrophy.Myintentionistoinfluencethecultureasanexample.SoIthinkintentionisthefirstpartofit.Twoisdeterminationtodothehardwork.IfwegotoourfavoritestandupcomedianswhoreallyJerrySeinfeldisstillpracticingfourorfivenightsaweek,andyouknowhowmanyCEOsIseegogiveareallyimportanttalkaftertworeps.Sointention,hardwork,whateverthatwordis.Butwe,let’srefineitandlet’shonoritassomethingthatcangetbetterandbetterandbetter.AndthenthethirdoneI’mgoingtosayisjoy,whichiscommunication.Youmentionedearlierthatcommunicationisthoughtofasanecessaryevil.Iwanttoreframethatforpeople.Communicationisthethingthatisgoingtoletusunlockunimaginableprogress.Solet’slookatitasthegiftthatitreallyis.

MattAbrahams: Communicationtrulyisahugeunlock,andthankyouforsharingthosethreeingredients,absolutelycritical.Thattenacitypieceisreally,reallyimportant.Well,Francis,thankyou.Iknewwewouldhaveagreatconversation.Iappreciateyouintroducingustoconceptsaroundtrust,aroundCulturedeandIandhowtofixthingsfast.Goodluckwithyournewbook.Thankyousomuch.

FrancesFrei: Thankyouverymuch,MattandIgetwhyyouhaveapodcastoncommunication.Youareabeautifulcommunicator.

MattAbrahams: Why,thankyou.

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